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Debate - Islam Hating "Christian" Zionists

Does the Koran instruct Muslims to wage war on all Christians and to force them to submit to a humiliating tax? Are modern-day Jews living in Israel God's chosen people? Am I an antichristian Jew hater for refusing to believe such blatant nonsense and for being openly critical of the state of Israel? These are just some of the many pressing issues discussed in this spirited and no-holds-barred debate that occurred recently on Facebook between myself and two esteemed Christian Zionists, Keith Thompson and Eric Brame, producers and researchers of the documentary Aquarius: The Age of Evil.

The discussion began when my friend, Carolyn Hamlett, posted a link to a page entitled "How Did Prophet Muhammad Treat Christians?" from the website ascertainthetruth.com. This article explains the true attitude of Islam toward Christians, that of friendship and tolerance. The attitude of these two "followers of Christ" toward Islam, in contrast, is anything but friendly and anything but tolerant.

Commentary and analysis written after the discussion is shown in italics to distinguish it from what was written at the time.
 

Carolyn Hamlett:


Now "google" Talmud and see what Zionist Jews say about Jesus, His mother Mary, and Christians. Jesus identified the Synagogue of Satan. It isn't the Muslims.

 
Michael Langston: 

It's clearly a "synagogue" that is referred to in that scripture as being satanic.

 
Keith Thompson:
 
There is no question many moderate muslims will claim Islam is ordered to treat Christians good but this is not faithful to orthodox Quranic teaching. In chapter 9 Muhammad gives his final marching orders to muslims and speifically talks about how to handle Christians and Jews around the world: "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled." (Q. 9:29) Therefore, Muslims are ordered to make war with Christians until they submit to Muslims by paying a humiliating tax called the jizia tax thereby subjecting us to humiliation. This was written when Muhammad was powerful and not scared to say how he truly felt. Do not be deceived by Muslim proganda or people who will quote Muhammad when he was weak earlier in Quran.

 

Note how this verse has been taken completely out of context and how no honest effort has been made to ascertain exactly who it refers to or what its true meaning is. This "historical researcher" and documentary maker merely assumes that it instructs Muslims to make war on all Christians, which is patently absurd in light of the long-standing Islamic tradition of tolerance and friendship towards Christians. What this verse really means (and this is so obvious) is that Muslims should make war only on a specific group of people: those who are persecuting or oppressing Muslims in some way, even if those oppressors are Jewish or Christian. Qur'an 9:29 Commentary


 Keith Thompson:

And the synagog of satan was in reference to a specific group of Jews in the 1st century who were persecuting Christians in the church at Philadelphia in Revelation 3. It is talking about Jews who are not real Jews i.e., not of God because they kill and persecute instead of following God and his new message in Christ.

 

Note the blatant hypocrisy here: In the comment immediately above regarding the Synagogue of Satan, this very capable "historical researcher" and documentary film maker discovers through his painstaking research that the Synagogue of Satan is actually in reference to, and I quote: "a specific group of Jews in the 1st century who were persecuting Christians" and that it doesn't refer to all Jews. Yet he's apparently unwilling to do the necessary research to establish the fact that the verse in the Koran that he falsely misrepresents as Muslims being instructed to make war on all Christians is referring also to a specific group of Christians and a specific group of Jews who were persecuting Muslims. Thus what he's falsely claiming (that Muslims are instructed to make war on all Christians and Jews) is not only false, it's hypocritical also. He'll only research what's required to support his own point of view.

 

Carolyn Hamlett:

And these Jews that are not the real Jews are the very ones that are being used to bring into power the Anti-Christ government. These are the ones who are behind 9-11.

 
Keith Thompson:
 
sounds like planted disinfo the nwo wants us to reapeat so we discredit ourselves as antisemites and so no one will listen to us. The NWO is comprised of people from every nation, and background united by occult, new age, esoteric secret societies and mystery religions. Its not the jews.

 

His absurd and slanderous claim in his previous comment regarding Islam sounds to me like the "planted disinfo." One thing I've learned over the years is that the disinfo artists themselves are the ones who shout "DISINFO!" the loudest. And nothing is ever the fault of Jews, according to cowards who are afraid to confront them. Sounds like he's scared that someone might call him an "evil antisemite" or something. But Jesus faced far worse persecution and wasn't the least bit intimidated or afraid to stand up to the Jewish establishment.

He sounds a great deal like Alex Jones, who also is afraid of confronting Jews. (Doing so would be bad for the sale of his videos.) By the way, when I say "Jews," what I'm referring to is the Jewish elite, not to Jews in general. So don't falsely accuse me of being a "Jew hater," or an "antisemite" when nothing could be further from the truth. The only race that matters or that we should ever be concerned with is the HUMAN race, and no distinction should be made between Jews and non-Jews. It's Jews themselves who make that distinction.


Michael Langston: 

Keith, let me ask you this question. You refer to what has been posted here as "Muslim propaganda." Why should I believe that what you've posted here in your comment isn't anti-Muslim propaganda taken out of context? How much do you really know about Islam and about the Koran? I'll wager that the person who created this website (ascertainthetruth.com) knows a whole lot more about Islam and about the Koran than you do.

 
Keith Thompson: 

Michael, the answer to your question is that you can read 9:29 of the Quran yourself as well as the Muslim Tafsir's (commentaries) here: www.altafsir.com and see them admit what I am saying. Yes I know about islam and the quran I write for www.answering-islam.org the most comprehensive scholarly refutation of Islamic theology and apologetics online. Ascertainthetruth.com is a good example of deception by omission - they are not giving you the full story but instead knowingly omitting important data to make Islam look good when in all actually it is not. Please read the thousands of articles at www.answering-islam.org God bless

 

After reading this verse in the Koran myself and the commentary that has been written about it (Qur'an 9:29 Commentary), I don't believe he knows (or cares to know) a thing about Islam or the Koran, but is only repeating anti-Islamic propaganda, the very same propaganda that we're hearing non-stop from mainstream media sources such as Fox News. If he's saying essentially the same thing about Islam that Fox News is saying, why should I or anyone else believe him? This anti-Islamic hysteria that we're hearing, whether from him or from the mainstream media, is being used to further the bogus "war on terror" agenda and to make us more likely to support a war with Iran. This is being used for an EVIL purpose. I'm not the least bit impressed with his "scholarly" or "Christian" credentials or the "thousands" of articles that he boastfully refers to.


 

Carolyn Hamlett: 

I am well aware of the hierarchy of those who have been working to bring the NWO....and part of The Plan is to pull the antisemite card.

 

Just you wait, Carolyn! You're about to see Keith himself pull the "antisemite card" right here in this very discussion after just a few more paragraphs!


 

Keith Thompson: 

well remember Carolyn, the Bible says the anti-christ and NWO are going to attack Israel and the jews like hitler did with the gentile nations and right now this jew blamming will feed into that.


How could the "antichrist and NWO" attack Israel when the New World Order and Israel are essentially the same? And where exactly in the Bible is Adolf Hitler mentioned or discussed in any way whatsoever, other than in someone's wild and insane imagination? This is pious bullshit that he's spewing. And as a wise man once said: When you get serious about bullshit, you're getting into some very serious bullshit.

 

Michael Langston: 

Are you a supporter of Israel, Keith? Do you believe that God will bless you for blessing Israel? 
 
 
Keith Thompson: 
 
I find it strange how Christians can be so easily mislead to dislike Gods chosen people the Jews of whom God saves 144,000 thousand and returns on the mount of olives to defend them the and will instead defend the Muslims who hate both the Christians and Jews and are ordered to make war with us and humiliate us in subjection. How warped.


Here's where Keith starts to reveal his true colors as a bona fide Christian Zionist. He doesn't offer a direct response to the question of whether or not he's a supporter of Israel, but it's clear from his answer that he indeed is and that he also believes the Israelis are "God's chosen people." Notice how he's only speaking of me "disliking" them here. Later he will make the grand transition to baselessly accusing me of actually "hating" them. Also, he repeats the big lie that Muslims are ordered to make war with Jews and Christians, and also that they "hate" them, another big lie. "Warped" is right, but it is Keith who is warped.

 

Keith Thompson:

Muhammad was an anti-christ false prophet who denied Jesus' death for our sins. Michael I see you are not a Christian but are obviously trying to influence Carolyn who is a faithful Christian who loves the Bible. Well Michael her Bible says... the Jews would be scattered and then brought back to their land as an old testament prophecy. This was fulfilled when the Jews got Israel so yes I support God's prophecy about Israeli restoration and so should Carolyn. This doesn't mean you support corrupt government though - there s a difference - but even God will use evil for good like Judas. You aren't even Christian so please do not lead her away from her scriptures.

 

The Prophet Muhammad may be a "false prophet" in Keith's opinion, but to call him "antichrist" is a blatant false statement, a misstatement of fact. The Prophet revered and honored Christ, even though he may not have believed in Christ in exactly the same way that Keith supposedly believes in him. John Hagee is a false prophet in my opinion, and my opinion is just as valid as Keith's. Also, in Keith's opinion, I'm not a Christian, but luckily for me, it won't be Keith who will be sitting on the throne of God on the Day of Judgement and doing the judging. It will be God Himself, and whether of not I'm worthy of God's Kingdom will be for God to decide, and certainly not Keith. With all the filthy, abominable lies this false teacher is spewing, perhaps it is I who should be worried about HIM trying to "influence" Carolyn in the wrong way and lead her astray, but I know that she's smart enough not to be swayed by lies. 

He clearly supports the idea of "Israeli restoration," and according to him, Carolyn should also. He doesn't waste any time in trying to "influence" her in that regard and in leading her astray. Let's reflect for a moment on just what he suggests that she be supporting and what this "Israeli restoration" actually is. What Keith has euphemistically termed "Israeli restoration" is stealing land from another group of people (the Palestinians, who have lived on that land for hundreds of years), oppressing them, imprisoning them, murdering them, torturing them, committing all manner of atrocities against them, committing genocide against them, and treating them like lowly, inferior animals. That's what this Zionist really supports when he says he supports "Israeli restoration," the theft of land from the Palestinian people and all those other evils I just mentioned. The Jews "got" Israel? No, "God's chosen people," the Jews, didn't just "get" Israel; they stole Israel from the Palestinians. This is what this self-proclaimed "follower of Christ" turns a blind and uncaring eye to when he supports this beast known as the state of Israel. 


Carolyn Hamlett: 

There is a difference between those Jews who were circumcised of heart and those who were not. Example: the Pharisees that Jesus said were of Satan, not Abraham.
 
 
Keith Thompson:

Pharisees were hypocritical leaders who made Gods word of no effect with their tradition but Jesus had a very special place for the common Jew just like we should. Paul said if he could give up his own salvation so that the Jews may be saved he would. We need not persecute the lost Jew but minister to them.

No one here has suggested "persecuting" common Jews, but by the same token, other groups of innocent people, such as innocent Palestinians, should not be persecuted either. Anyone foolish enough to support the hypocritical leaders of the modern state of Israel (the modern-day Pharisees) and their Zionist ambitions to take over all of Palestine and expel the Palestinians is supporting the persecution of the Palestinians. You can't be opposed to the persecution of one group of people (the common Jews) and support (through your support of Israel) the wholesale persecution of another group of people (the Palestinians). It's not only hypocritical, but a fallacy in logic.

 
Carolyn Hamlett:

I'm not against Jews any more than I am against Christians.

You and I, Carolyn, aren't against anyone except the criminals, but it seems that Keith IS against innocent Palestinians when he supports the criminal state of Israel.

 

Michael Langston: 

Thus you testify against yourself, Keith, and reveal yourself to be a total charlatan. All your supposed biblical "knowledge" doesn't impress me in the least. It is understanding that we all should strive for and that you obviously lack entirely. I don't have to say anything more to discredit you. You've done an excellent job of discrediting yourself. So go bless Israel all you want, and we'll just see if God truly blesses you.

So modern-day Jews and the Jews behind the state of Israel are "God's chosen people" in your warped view? Then God doesn't set very high standards for His "chosen," then does He, Keith? (Maybe if I capitalize "He" and "His," it might convince you that I am indeed a Christian. LOL)

Just take a moment to open your blind, deluded eyes to all the criminality and wrongdoing perpetrated by this state of "Israel," which is made up, according to you, of "God's chosen people." Whatever covenant God may have once had with these people has long since been broken, by their own wrongdoing and disobedience.

The Jews ceased to be "God's chosen people" when they rejected Christ and had him crucified. Now how difficult is that to understand, Keith? It's so clear and simple that even a child can understand it, but apparently you find the concept too difficult. How can modern-day Jews be "God's chosen people" when a primary tenet of their Jewish religion is rejection of Christ? And not just plain rejection, but full-blown hatred, as has been clearly expressed in the Jewish Talmud.

Show me a verse anywhere in the Koran that expresses any sort of hatred for Jesus whatsoever. I defy you to do so.

You strike me as an insufferable hypocrite, Keith. You boast about being associated with the website called "answering Islam," but where in all your voluminous writings have you ever answered the flat-out hatred directed against Jesus expressed in the Talmud? 

Oh, and by the way, Keith. Carolyn doesn't need anyone to "lead" [or "influence"] her. She's perfectly capable of thinking for herself and coming to her own conclusions. And as for me not being a Christian in your opinion, if you're an accurate representation of what it is to be a "Christian," then I don't want to be one. But I don't believe that you truly are.

 

Keith Thompson:

Merely claiming I discredit myself is not an argument. You just hate Jews and were deceived to defend islam. Talmud is bad yes but the quran is worse and the difference is God returns to raise up 144,000 Jews and defend Israel in the last days on the mount of olives as was predicted in the OT - if they ceased to be his people like you claim then God would not do so. Here is my question for you: Where does the NT explicitly say that the jews as a whole (not pharisees) ceased to be Gods people and how do you address him saving 144,000 as well as defending Israel upon his reutn against the gentile nations on the mount of olives? That is the Biblical answer to your illogic and hatred for Gods chosen people whom Paul said he would give his salvation up for if only they could be saved as a whole. You are not a Christian because you don't even believe the Bible so there is no point in speaking with you anyway. Its not my fault you are wrong.

He does indeed discredit himself, and here is yet one more example: Here he plays the dreaded antisemitism card against me (saying I "just hate Jews"), the dishonest tactic that all of us must eventually face at some point in our lives for being outspoken critics of the state of Israel (including ex-President Jimmy Carter). The Zionists accused Carter of being a Jew hater. Is that the best this "Christian" Zionist can do to counter my unassailable arguments? Calling me a Jew hater in a desperate attempt to discredit and defame me? By so doing he only brings discredit to himself, for nowhere have I expressed any shred of "hatred" toward Jews. Valid criticism of Jewish wrongdoing, yes, but never hatred. There's a difference between hatred and righteous indignation that he apparently does not understand or does not care to understand. He's simply a liar and a slanderer for saying that and is using the exact same filthy tactic that all Zionist use: attempting to discredit their opponents and critics by labeling them antisemitic. Nice try, Keith, but your dirty accusation of antisemitism rolls right off me like water off a duck's back.

Why is it so incredibly difficult for this supposedly enlightened biblical scholar to understand the following simple concept? The moment we turn away from God (as have the Jews) and commit iniquity, at that very moment we lose God's favor until we repent and turn back to God. The Israelis haven't done so; they haven't turned back to God, and all that's required to ascertain that fact is to look at what they're still doing to the Palestinians.

The Pharisees and the followers of the Pharisees (who today are the modern Jews) ceased to be God's chosen people by committing the ultimate crime of rejecting Jesus Christ and having him nailed to the cross. The modern-day Jews didn't commit the crime themselves, but their ancestors did, and the sins of the fathers are visited upon them since they're still following to this day that very same religion: a PHARISAICAL religion based on the rejection of Christ. When they return to God by believing in Jesus and becoming followers of and believers in Christ, perhaps then they will regain the favor of God. But not until that happens and they change their wicked ways will they regain such favor. Keith should open his blind eyes and take a long hard look at what they're doing in Palestine, what "God's chosen people" are doing to the Palestinians. How could God look favorably on a people like this who are committing such crimes? Is this "Christian" Zionist just totally blind to all this horrible human suffering, or is he one of the blind leaders of the blind, who will lead all his blind followers into the ditch or straight into hell? One doesn't need a scriptural New Testament reference to understand the truth of what I've just said. It's what Jefferson called "self-evident" truth.

Near the end of the paragraph, he just slanders me further by making reference to my "illogic and hatred for God's chosen people," when nothing I've said is in any way illogical nor based on hate. It's odd how a supposed "follower of Christ" could be such a total stranger to the truth when Christ is supposedly the embodiment of truth. At the end, he again usurps God's throne and pronounces harsh judgement upon me by proclaiming once more that I'm "not a Christian." Well, with "Christians" like him, who'd want to be a Christian?
 

Keith Thompson: 

On your page under religion you say: "Believe nothing unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." If you are Christian why not say " I believe in Jesus Christ instead of this subjective believing what your heart tells you stuff? The Bible says mans heart is deceitful and wicked. Trust Christ, run to Christ, submit to Christ. I do not dislike you Michael but you are promoting deception and error. 

 

He'd be much better off if he'd learn to listen to his own reason and to his own common sense (if he has any, that is) rather that relying on someone else's faulty interpretation of ambiguous and obscure scriptures. How did he come up with the unreasonable and senseless notion that he, as a "Christian," should support the wicked state of Israel? Most likely because of his misuse of scripture and by following the doctrines of blatant false prophets. It certainly wasn't through reason and common sense that he came to such a fallacious conclusion, of supporting the wicked state of Israel, because reason and common sense (which are God-given qualities and closely akin to God's Holy Spirit) would have him do otherwise. Would Christ have supported it? Would Christ support Israel? He didn't support the Pharisees, did he? 

I do trust in Christ; I do run to Christ; and I do submit to Christ, but only to the REAL Christ, never a counterfeit, and I'll never submit to any wolf in sheep's clothing whose heart is indeed deceitful and wicked. What is this "Bible believer" promoting if it isn't "deception and error" when he supports the wicked abomination known as the state of Israel and its criminal actions against Palestinians?

 

Eric Brame: 

Michael, the Talmud is used as a record of Rabbinic opinions. In Judaism, there is no fixed theology. Behavior is tightly controlled while meaning is open. Therefore, your strawman is ahistorical.


This silly comment from this silly boy named Eric, makes no sense at all. Ahistorical? Give me a break! This boy spends way too much time debating on message boards and Internet forums. His use of the term "strawman" is a dead giveaway. How does what he has said here in any way invalidate what I said earlier regarding the overt hatred expressed toward Jesus in the Jewish Talmud? And the abject hypocrisy of these two highly esteemed "researchers" in not speaking out against the Talmud while focusing entirely on the "evils" of Islam? This comment does nothing to invalidate my criticism, and my criticism stands. So the Talmud is a record of Rabbinic opinions. We know that already. Why is it necessary to restate the obvious? Perhaps because there's no real way to refute my argument, and the poor kid is desperately clinging to straws. Perhaps that's the reason he's apparently blocked me: He's scared to death of being proven wrong.


 

Michael Langston:
 

Keith, I'll not answer any of your questions until you provide an acceptable answer to mine. Show me a verse in the Koran that expresses any sort of hatred whatsoever toward Jesus.
 

Eric Brame: 

Michael, what is your definition of hatred? Would it be false claims about Jesus?

 

Well, what's claimed in the Talmud concerning Jesus (that he's boiling in hot excrement as his punishment in hell) would definitely qualify as hatred toward Jesus. The best that this boy can come up with in regard to finding anything in the Koran expressing any sort of hatred toward Jesus is that it makes supposed "false claims" about him (i.e. it doesn't conform exactly to what Eric believes).


 

Eric Brame: 

If Muslims loved Jesus, they would be using false Gnostic forgeries:
 
What he said in the previous sentence makes no sense. He must have meant "wouldn't" instead of "would." And what follows are verses that he's copied and pasted.

And (make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust the form of a bird, then ...I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission, and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission; and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses. Surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers. Qur'an 3:49

When Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to thee and to thy mother, when I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit; thou spokest to people in the cradle and in old age, and when I taught thee the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel, and when thou didst determine out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then thou didst breathe into it and it became a bird by My permission; and thou didst heal the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the Children of Israel from thee when thou camest to them with clear arguments -- but those of them who disbelieved said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. Qur'an 5:110 

 

These verses from the Koran that he's cited here make my point for me. Muslims do indeed love Jesus. These are the kinds of beautiful and poetic words that should bring reverent tears to the eyes of believers, IF they're indeed righteous and do love Christ. They do bring tears to mine. 

Now the Original Material
 
I, Thomas, an Israelite, judged it necessary to make known to our brethren among the Gentiles, the actions and miracles of Christ in his childhood, which our Lord and God Jesus Christ wrought after his birth in Bethlehem in our country, at which I myself was astonished; the beginning of which was as follows. 2. When the child Jesus was five years of age and there had been a shower of rain that was now over, Jesus was playing with other Hebrew boys by a running stream, and the waters ran over the banks and stood in little lakes; 3. But the water instantly became clear and useful again; they readily obeyed him after he touched them only by his word. 4. Then he took from the bank of the stream some soft clay and formed out of it twelve sparrows; and there were other boys playing with him. 5. But a certain Jew seeing the things which he was doing, namely, his forming clay into the figures of sparrows on the Sabbath day, went presently away and told his father Joseph, 6. Behold, your boy is playing by the river side, and has taken clay and formed it into twelve sparrows, and profanes the Sabbath. 7. Then Joseph came to the place where he was, and when he saw him, called to him, and said, Why do you that which is not lawful to do on the Sabbath day? 8. Then Jesus clapping together the palms of his hands, called to the sparrows, and said to them: Go, fly away; and while you live remember me. 9. So the sparrows fled away, making a noise. 10. The Jews seeing this, were astonished and went away and told their chief persons what a strange miracle they had seen wrought by Jesus. The Second Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ: Chapter 1
 
And when the Lord Jesus was seven years of age, he was on a certain day with other boys his companions about the same age. 2. Who at play made clay into several shapes, namely, asses, oxen, birds, and other figures. 3. Each boasting of his work and endeavoring to exceed the rest. 4. Then the Lord Jesus said to the boys, I will command these figures which I have made to walk. 5. And immediately they moved, and when he commanded them to return, they returned. 6. He had also made the figures of birds and sparrows, which, when he commanded to fly, did fly, and when he commanded to stand still, did stand still; and if he gave them meat and drink, they did eat and drink. 7. When at length the boys went away and related these things to their parents, their fathers said to them, Take heed, children, for the future, of his company, for he is a sorcerer; shun and avoid him, and from now on never play with him. The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ: Chapter 15

 

I suppose Eric must be trying to prove that these verses are "false." But what it all boils down to is simply that these "false" verses are "false" in the opinion of Eric. I guess that makes the verses he cites from the Koran, which appear to be similar to these apocryphal ones, "false" verses also, but only "false" in HIS opinion. Sorry, Eric, I think for myself. I will not allow YOU to do my thinking for me. I will allow only God and God's Holy Spirit to lead me, not you. If I made the foolish mistake of following one the blind leaders of the blind, such as yourself, I would indeed fall into the ditch.

Michael, your subjective nonsense shows that you don't know about Islam. AKA don't make claims about what you clearly don't know.

I'm sorry my readers were subjected to all that long-winded copying and pasting, but they can blame it all on Eric. He's apparently trying to back up his false claim that Muslims don't love Jesus, by citing these obscure and esoteric verses and using them to come to totally nonsensical conclusions. And then he turns around and calls what I've written "nonsense." I'm not the one making the "false claims" here. It's HIM! When he claims (if this is indeed what he's claiming) that Muslims don't love Jesus, he's simply lying and doing the very same thing he's falsely accusing me of doing: making false claims. The above verses from the Koran that he himself cites make it perfectly clear that Muslims do indeed love Jesus. Thus he refutes himself by what he himself has posted. In addition to being a liar and a hypocrite, he's also a fool.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Michael, the koran demotes Jesus from his exalted status as right hand of the Father (deity) and claims he is only a prophet. It denies his heroic death on the cross for our sins and thus is very hateful since Jesus said he came to lay down his life for his sheep. It also commands the killing of Jesus' people (Christians) in 9:29 of the Koran.

 

Well, at least the Koran doesn't assert that Jesus is in hell boiling in hot excrement, as does the Talmud. The Koran doesn't say anything "hateful" at all in reference to Jesus. The verses from the Koran that Eric has cited show that just the opposite in fact is true. Just because the teachings in the Koran regarding Jesus don't conform exactly to what Keith believes about Jesus doesn't mean that those teachings are "hateful."

 

Want to know what's really hateful, aside from the hate expressed toward Jesus in the Jewish Talmud? It's Keith's malicious and hateful lie that he just told: that the Koran "commands the killing of Jesus' people." What utterly fallacious and lying nonsense! Before, he was merely asserting that it instructs Muslims to "wage war" on Christians. Now his lie has greatly intensified, and he's claiming that it "commands" Muslims to actually "kill" Christians! Can such a damnable liar as Keith escape from the damnation of hell? I'd be very concerned about my "salvation" if I were him.

 

Eric Brame:

 

They hate Jesus.

 

That's a lie also. Muslims do not "hate" Jesus, as the two verses from the Koran that Eric himself cited clearly show. He's simply a liar. Is there anything in the Bible about filthy, scumbag liars entering into the Kingdom of Heaven? That would be like a camel passing through the eye of a needle, I would think. Eric should be worried about his "salvation" also.

 

Michael Langston:

 

Having a different opinion about Jesus is not the same as overtly hating him. They do NOT hate Jesus. And Eric, you are a liar for saying that.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Denial of the very essence of the truth of the gospel and who Jesus is would only be considered a mere difference of opinion by someone who knows not Christ and defends a wicked false religion that calls for the death of Christians in 9:29. Shame on you I am done here.

 

Islam "calls for the death of Christians" in verse 9:29? So it's "death" this time that Islam is calling for, and not just waging war on them? It's just another variation on the same old lie. He compounds his sin of lying by repeating it over and over.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Plus no one ever claimed Islam hates Jesus so that is a straw man. But they do hate him for not following his commands. Jesus said those who love him follow him (gospel, etc). So they do not love him.

 

No one ever claimed that Islam hates Jesus? Eric just said "they hate Jesus" only a few short minutes ago in his comment. That's exactly what he just said. And according to Keith, Islam doesn't follow Jesus' commands? I wonder if Keith thinks that HE'S following Jesus' commands when he commits the sin of bearing false witness by telling abominable lies about Islam? Islam calls for the "death" of Christians? Shame on him for being such a liar!

 

Michael Langston:

 

I am done with you too, Keith, and indeed you may very well be done here. Those who love him follow him? Then why aren't "God's chosen people" loving him and following him?

 

Eric Brame:

 

Michael, Ibn Kathir even says to Hate and Kill the followers of Jesus Christ. Secondly, my argument is based on their documentation which means you strawmanned my position. Thus you logically lost the argument based on evidence. Keith and I are history researchers and know the philosophical criteria of history. In the end Michael you have been exposed as logically fallacious and deserve the scorn. Michael, read the Bible for once instead of reading fallacious material.

 

I don't accept any of their dubious "documentation" as valid since it contradicts the very essence of what is contained in Islam, which unquestionably honors Jesus and teaches tolerance toward Christians. The bottom line truth is that Islam reveres and honors Jesus, whereas Judaism rejects and abhors him. Why is that so difficult to understand? That's the fundamental truth that these esteemed "history researchers" who "know the philosophical criteria of history" fail to acknowledge. How is it possible to "know" so much yet understand so little? They've definitely earned my scorn, I must tell you.

 

There's one more point that needs to be made: Since there are obviously false Christians like Keith and Eric who misrepresent Jesus and Christianity, it stands to reason that there are also false Muslims who misrepresent their religion as well. So when Eric points his finger to a particular Muslim who might be saying such hateful things about Christians, it proves absolutely nothing about Islam itself or Muslims in general. This is an improper use of inductive reasoning, an error in logic called a false generalization. Eric should know that if he's as skilled in logic as he'd have us believe.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Gods chosen people do not love Jesus but he loves them as I have already shown so I will defend them. But you defend a religon that says to kill us, demotes Jesus, does not follow his commands, and is not loved by God as a chosen people like the Jews are.

 

At least I don't defend a religion that "demotes" Jesus to the point where he's boiling in hot excrement and semen in hell.

 

Michael Langston:

 

You're both "scribes and Pharisees" in my opinion.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Well you're a jew hating antichistian muslim defender who does not know the truth of God in my opinion. Its ironic, Islam in the hadith material teaches that the end will not come unless the muslims kill all the Jews. No wonder you defend Islam. No more words do you deserve.

 

Keith doesn't deserve any more words from me either, but I'll give him a few anyway. Here he again plays his "Jew hating" antisemitism card and lies once again by calling me "antichristian." I'm only opposed to counterfeit Christians who follow and promote false teachings like his. It's true that I'm a "Muslim defender" just as he says. For once what he's saying is one hundred percent true. Muslims, and indeed all the world's downtrodden, need defending when malicious and hateful lies are being told against them. And guess what? If Jesus were here on this earth today, he'd be defending them also because Jesus is always on the side of truth. So if Keith is on the side of lies and Jesus is on the side of truth, I guess that puts Keith and Jesus on opposing sides.

 

Carolyn Hamlett:

 

Keith and Eric, I know that you two know who it is that owns the media, who it is that brought us 911...and what their agenda is. I cannot support their deceptive agenda of a piece of land named Israel. Remember the globalists are Luciferians, and Christians support them to see the book of Revelation be fulfilled. I think Jesus will say he never knew many of these Christians.

 

Good for Carolyn! She's not buying in to Keith's damnable lie that she should mindlessly support the state of Israel.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Carolyn, sadly you have been badly mislead to believe Jews run the media, did 9/11 and run the NWO but there is no evidence for that and to blame the jewish race as a whole like your friend tries to do is hitlerian and evil - that leads to genocide. Those people will Christ say "I never knew you." Very weird people. You claim to believe the Bible so where does the Bible say Jews will run the final beast NWO system?

 

Here Keith lies yet again (unsuprisingly). It can be factually proven that most of the major media outlets in this country are indeed run by Jews. When he says that they aren't, he's just plain, flat-out lying. Exonerating Jews of having major involvement in 9-11 and in the New World Order as he does in this statement is also disingenuous in my opinion. But here's where he starts to get really nasty: He falsely claims it's "the Jewish race as a whole" that I blame, as if I'm some sort of Nazi-like racist who hates and blames every single Jew. Not so! And I shouldn't even have to defend myself because there's no real evidence for that at all. It's something Keith has conjured up in his warped imagination. It's the Jewish elite that I'm speaking of here and the corrupt Jewish establishment. He turns the screws on me even tighter by calling my views "hitlerian and evil" and claims that they lead to "genocide." It's ironic that he himself supports the state of Israel, which has indeed committed genocide against the people of Gaza.

 

Carolyn Hamlett:

 

I am reminded of a well respected Christian pastor who said that he believed that America will never fall because of America's support of Israel. He gave thanks to people like the Rockefellers. The pastor also called Jesus's Kingdom to come as the New World Order.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

Once again there is a difference between following Gods commands and prophecy of jews getting Israel back and supporting corrupt government who heads up israel and blaming all Jewish people for something they are not responsible for. You are very lost.

 

But HOW did the Jews "get Israel back" (a "command" and "prophecy" of God, according to Keith, that he'd advise Carolyn to support)? Just how did this "Israeli restoration" as he euphemistically calls it actually happen? As I've already explained in sordid detail, it was by criminal means that the Zionists took Palestine, and anyone such as Keith who claims to support Zionism is an admitted accomplice to the crime as well. And he calls us lost?

 

Michael Langston:

 

You've shown your true colors here, Keith. Again, it wasn't necessary for me to say anything. You've said it all yourself. You're a confirmed Muslim hater if ever I've seen one. So how is that any different from or any better than what you've falsely accused me of being? What an insufferable hypocrite you are! You make me sick!

 

If he can call me a Jew hater (falsely), then I have every right to call him a Muslim hater (truthfully). It's the person who's lying that's guilty of "hate," as he definitely is lying about Islam and Muslims.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

The only one who has shown their true colours is you. You need to educate yourself about what Islam teaches and not rely on some biased pro-islamic website that will not give you all the material and you need to read the Bible to find out God loves his jewish people and granted them their land. NOW, I do not hate Muslims but I dislike quranic theology. Please do not misrepresent my beliefs. You are a deceiver. Shame on you.

 

So Keith can misrepresent my beliefs all he wants by calling me an antisemite and a Jew hater and imply that I'm a racist, but I dare not "misrepresent" his beliefs in the slightest by merely telling the truth about them and exposing the fact that they're a pack of lies? Give me a break! And did "God" grant the Jewish people "their" land by stealing it from the Palestinians? Is God a thief?

 

Carolyn Hamlett:

 

No, you misunderstood me, Keith. I could never have such a narrow view of the operation as to believe that it is the Jews.

 

Keith misunderstands everything. Either that or he simply does not want to understand, which I think is the far more likely alternative.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

That is where what you are saying leads to Carolyn. I have seen it happen. Please stay in contact with me so we can try to clear some things up in the future. For now I need to go - God bless YOU, and bye Michael.

 

Keith says to Carolyn: "Please stay in contact with me so we can try to clear some things up in the future." He wants to try and brainwash her and get her to agree with his way of thinking, to convince her to be a supporter of Israel and to believe his perverted lies about Islam. I don't think there's a snowflake's chance in hell of her ever believing that, and I don't think there's a very good chance of God ever blessing him, at least not until he repents of his sins.

 

Michael Langston:

 

There you go again, Keith. Your hypocrisy is showing. You accuse me of misrepresenting your beliefs by calling you a Muslim hater, yet you blatantly misrepresent mine by stating that I'm a Jew hater and that I blame "ALL Jewish people." I never said that. But I do blame the Jewish establishment, the Jewish elite, and the Jewish state of Israel, which you seem to be defending. If it can be said that I'm a Jew hater, then it can also be said that you're a Muslim hater.

 

Eric Brame:

 

Michael, you are blatantly blaming all Jewish people. Actions speak louder than words Michael. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them." You didn't qualify one thing you said. I did! Especially with Ibn Kathir. AKA You failed again.

 

I wonder what evil "actions" I've supposedly committed that would lead this kid to say that I'm blaming all Jewish people? He's just desperately attempting to discredit me as a racist, again playing the worn-out antisemitism card just like the other guy did. They're two birds of a feather who have been beaten in an argument and are desperately resorting to unfair, below-the-belt tactics.

 

Keith Thompson:

 

You hate Israel, I do not hate Arabia, Iran, Iraq or Muslim people. You blame the NWO and establishment on jewish people because you hate them. The NWO is full of all kinds of people, blaming it on Jews is just a way to get your jew hatred out. I say I do not like the quran. I never once said I don't like Muslim people - I don't like the religion's teachings. So no there is no similarity between you and me.

 

See what I mean? Just take a look at and take a whiff of that stinking load of Zionist crap that he just dumped all over me. The two of them are working in tandem and using the same play book. It's the same old song and dance of attempting to discredit the critics of Zionism by labeling them racist and antisemitic. So I'm just getting my "Jew hatred" out? No, I'm doing what I can to defend all that is just and all that is true from false teachers promoting injustice and lies, such as these two "Christian" Zionists, who are promoting injustice against the Palestinian people by their support (or tacit support) of the state of Israel and who are spreading vicious lies about Muslims and Islam.

 

Eric Brame:

 

Keith, the Bible also speaks against hatred which debunks Michael altogether. Enough said.

 

See how they attempt to invalidate and discredit ideas they don't agree with and cannot "debunk" honestly by applying a label of "hatred" to them? They're transparent as glass.

 

Michael Langston:

 

Eric, you are blatantly putting words in my mouth. What's wrong with criticizing Jewish wrongdoing, and how does that magically morph into "blaming all Jewish people"? Only in your warped imagination! What's wrong with criticizing any sort of wrongdoing and doing so truthfully? Jesus himself did it when he criticized the Pharisees.

 

Jesus did indeed say "by their fruits you shall know them," and such can be said about the state of Israel. What are those "fruits," Eric? The brutal and unjustified attack on the innocent people of Gaza maybe? Or perhaps the attack on the USS Liberty? What do those "fruits" tell you about the "tree"?

 

I can tell you one thing for certain. Verily, verily I say unto you: The modern-day state of Israel is not made up of "God's chosen people."

 

Furthermore, the whole idea of "God's chosen" is racist and supremacist in character. No race or people is "chosen" above any other. If you understood anything about the teachings of Jesus, you would know this. He came to do away with all that.

 

Eric, you are a liar and a slanderer for stating that my views are based on "hatred." And Keith, you said it all when you said "there is no similarity between you and me." I don't want to be "unequally yoked" with a person such as you. And that goes for you as well, Eric. I want nothing further to do with either one of you.
 
Administrators Note: Please check out the following article that further discusses the true meaning of verse 9:29
 
 
Listen to http://www.poweroftruthradio.com/ an alternative radio station dedicated to exposing and broadcasting truths about Islam and Zionism not heard on mainstream media.
 

Comments   

Michael L
+3 #101 Michael L michael@911underground.com 2011-04-15 02:13
It's no use trying to take issue with him, Nashid and Carolyn. He already "knows" everything so it's impossible to teach him anything.
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Paul
+3 #102 Paul pfanderson@hotmail.com 2011-04-16 17:33
If nothing else, it's obvious that "NWO" is Samuel Benitez, the insular boy with OCD issues who's absolutely obsessed with Carolyn for some reason. When caught in lies and deception he either ignores or deflects, just as he's done here. But now he's refering to himself as "we"? Wonder if the doctors at his mental hospital are aware of the extent of his disorders...
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