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Imam WDM on Gay Lifestyle
"Just a few years ago, people didn't think that equal rights meant equal rights for gays. At that time Americans could have accepted equal rights for women because that is natural. I realize that this may be offensive to some people, but I don't hate anyone because he or she is gay. I just don't see their way of life as being normal. I have been trained to believe that what is normal is that which is established in nature, and it is not established in nature that the human being is homosexual. Nature has established that the human being is male and female. Although there may be an occasional development or presence of homosexuality, that is not the norm. And if it is not the norm in nature, it is unnatural.
"The new way of thinking today claims, "Anything that happens is natural." That is not the way I was brought up, nor the education I received when I was young. We were taught to judge whatever normally occurs in nature to be natural, and the accidents or deviations of nature to be unnatural. That is how I was brought up, and I am going to hold onto that kind of thinking even if it kills me. I prefer to die that way. I must say again that I do not hate gays. In fact, I sympathize with them. It's a wonder we do not have more gays when we consider the way masculinity is treated in this society." June, 1987
Isn't that Qumran also???
In Quraan, Sura (Al Nor) verse (31)
( 31 ) And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.". Try to find the difference between the men mentioned in this verse and those mentioned in the verses you are referring to. Ask yourself is there a difference ? The difference is clear and it proves that there is some men are born like that and some other choose. Are they the same same in the eye of God??. That goes with the scientific discoveries about gender identity and how it is not simple as people culturally, socially and religiously were brought up to think. Did you choose to be straight, of course you did not, you are just born like that. Again, explain the type of men mentioned in the verse above?. Either you accept those born like that or not will not change the fact that they are accepted by God according to the verse in Sura (Al Nor) verse (31). Thanks for being open minded.
Thanks for the post. The verse states those male attendants having no physical desire, it did not state those male attendants having physical desire for other men or women for other women. That's probably what you would like the verse to say but ALLAH is not saying that in that verse. Other translators translate this verse as male servants who lack vigour. The reasons why the male servant lack vigour or physical desires may be for a number of reasons.
ALLAH is not a contradictory God nor is the Qur'an contradictory. It does not strongly condemn homosexuality in one part with strong statements like "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Then it OKs homosexuality in another part claiming that people can't help it because they are born that way. The Qur'an does not do that. It consistently condemns homosexuality as an abhorrent, abnormal act warranting severe punishment from ALLAH.
It will be helpful for our discussion to download this specialized book about human gender identity. Just neglect the scientific terms and concentrate on how complicated and sensitive the process of deciding whether a newborn will be male or female or something in between. I am not objecting that most religions reject those who choose to be involved homosexual sexual act. My point is those born like that, with gender disorders, which I think the verse I had mentioned clearly refer to them. It is something that can not be prevented although in some cases it can be treated as mentioned in the book. According to the verse, those born like that, are accepted in the society even to private area of women. It is Qu'ran not me who is telling !!. This is the link to the book.
You wrote Quote:As I explained in my last post, the verse does not say that. It is you, NOT the Qur'an, who is trying to tell me something that the Qur'an did not say. The verse said "those male attendants having no physical desire," it did not state those male attendants having physical desire for other men or women for other women. That is your wrong, faulty interpretation seeking to justify your own purposes. The verse is clearly talking about men who lack vigor or any physical desire. It never mentioned them being born that way nor does it mention that they had desires for other men. You should stop reading into the Qur'an what is not there.
I will look at the booklet you suggested. My degree is in physics so scientific terms don't bother me.
I suggest that you also check out this short 7 minute video addressing the subject of homosexuality and Islam:
Homosexuality and Islam...FUNNY
It never mentioned them being born that way nor does it mention that they had desires for other men.
So what are those men, who created them like that, Did they create themselves?. Are you allowed to search about those men nature ?.. I met Muslims who always claim that their religion never contacted with science facts, on contrary to other religions ?. So, what is the nature of those men ?.. From my readings, it is not mentioned in Qu'ran how to pray ?. So, the same for those men without desire to women ? . So, as you got information about the details of who are you praying, why not to tell me details about those men life and how they were accepted and treated in the early days of Islam ?.
you judged my intentions by saying " to justify your own purposes ". That is the expected from the very religious people who always act like Gods on earth and as if they are sure of going to heaven. Anyway, my intention is to know the truth. I am concerned about how the society should differentiate between those who are born like that (created by God like that.. in your book" has no desire without any other details", and those who choose to be with desire to same sex. I hope my intention is clear to you and I hope reading the science of gender identity will clarify more my intentions.
You said Qu'ran did not say that those kind of men without desire are allowed to see the adornment of women ???. It is clear in the verse that they are allowed. And where women will show their adornment, sure in their private area. So, those men are allowed to be in the women's private area, that means they are accepted in the society. I do not know why are you denying that??. I think that arise from your denial of the fact about those type of men, who are created without desire.
About the link you suggested, I know that almost all religions consider CHOOSING to do sex with same sex is unacceptable by the Creator who is for some reasons created also some men without desire (born like that) and created the straight people ( born like that).
This scholar in the clip, why is he going to a western country?, why not to study how much is homosexuality hidden in his own society?, and what are its causes and how to treat it?, and to find about those men without desire to women? why they are like that? and why Qu'ran allowed them to the private area of women ?. I think that is better than showing himself as a hero.
At the end, my intention is to know and ascertain the truth about those men without desire to women and how do the early Islamic society accepted them.. can you provide me with the truth ?